Foundation Corona Committee, 95th meeting on March 11th, 2022

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts (US economist and publicist, Deputy Secretary of the Treasury under the Reagan administration, USA)

in conversation with Wolfgang Wodarg, Viviane Fischer and Reiner Fuellmich

(Original language: English)

[Transkript vom Team corona-ausschuss-info.com +Ed]


Reiner Füllmich: [03:36:56]
I guess I can go ahead and introduce you. Or do you want to do it yourself?

Paul Craig Roberts:PaulRoberts95
Are you ready for me, then?

Reiner Füllmich:
I’m ready, yes.

Paul Craig Roberts:
So… I don’t want to… is the other participant finished?

Reiner Füllmich:
Yes. He says he… has some ideas about the role of China, which he will explain to us at a later point in time. But right now, he’s finished with his overview of the unipolar politics.

Paul Craig Roberts:
All right. Well, I am Paul Craig Roberts. I was a professor at Stanford University, at Georgetown University. I was a journalist, I was an editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, columnist for Business Week, the Scrips-Howard news service. I was on the Congressional staff, House, Senate. I was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. And in my later live as an exiled from Washington, I’ve been telling the truth, as close to it as I can get.

Reiner Füllmich:[3:38:41]
Which was not possible when you were still– not, before you were in exile, right?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes, it was– Washington is not a place for truth.

Reiner Füllmich:
Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, we have a new secretary of health who can hardly spell his name. But he did at one point when he gave an interview say, he did say, yes if a politician tells the truth, that may very well be his political suicide. He said this on camera.

Paul Craig Roberts:
That’s truth. Is– Washington is the great enemy of truth, not just in the United States, but everywhere.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah. It has– it was converted by the neo-conservatives to the belief that it’s exceptional and indispensable, and has the right to world hegemony. And it’s this drive to hegemony that is the cause of all the troubles.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm. What’s that, what’s this old movie with… James Stewart? What– the movie “[Mr. Smith Goes] to Washington”? That’s the kind of politician that people are looking for and hoping for, and that kind of politician seems to have gotten lost.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes, it’s… not actually possible, because the politicians are so dependenton raising funds to finance their campaign that they become the servants of those who fund them. So the politicians are really not accountable to the voters; they’re accountable to who pays their campaign cost. And this is always the large, powerful, organized private interest groups. The military-security complex; you have the pharmaceutical industry; you have the energy industry, the mines, the timber. And you have the commercial agriculture, agribusiness. These are the powerful interest groups, and they actually write the legislation. Senators and Congressmen don’t write it. The staffs don’t write it. It’s handed to them by their campaign financers.

[3:41:47]
So you have a– what democracy consists of is people representing powerful private interest groups.

Reiner Füllmich: [3:42:01]
So politicians just sign what they’re told to sign.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes–

Reiner Füllmich:
That’s xxxxxxxxx from German politicians, actually.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, it’s even worse for Europe, because I think the same thing goes on there, but they– in addition, they have to comply with Washington.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
As far as I can tell, there’s really no such thing as an independent western nation. Other than the United States, all the rest are puppet states.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And I don’t say this in order to insult Europeans I’m just repeating what my experience is showing me to be the case.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts: [3:42:51]
This is why the west speaks with one voice. There’s only one voice, and it comes from Washington.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mmhm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
…Go ahead.

Reiner Füllmich:
No I’m sorry, I’m sorry, go ahead.

Paul Craig Roberts:
I’ll share this with you, since I published it some years ago. Many years ago my PhD dissertation chairman found himelf the Assistant Secretary of Defense for international security affairs. This was during the Vietnam War. And he– his job was to wind that war down. This was the… Nixon administration. He sent for me. And I went to his office in the Pentagon, and he wanted me to go Vietnam to take over the aid programs. And I… refused the offer, but used the opportunity, I asked him, how is it we get all these countries in Europe and everywhere to do what we want? Why do they always do what we want?

He said, “Money.” I said, Oh, you mean foreign aid. He said, “No, no. We give the leaders bagfulls of money. They report to us.”

Reiner Füllmich:
Wow.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Now, he didn’t agree with that. But there wasn’t anything he could do about it. It was just the way it worked. So– and he had no reason to tell me that, if it wasn’t true. So I think there you kind of see why Europe is always… the lapdog for Washington.

Reiner Füllmich:
So that’s what it looks like.

Paul Craig Roberts:
All the leaders–

Viviane Fischer:
Would you then say that also _our_ leaders, like Angela Merkel and all the others, get huge amounts of money?

That’s the implication of what he said.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm. Makes perfect sense to me.

Paul Craig Roberts:
They just… bought. And it serves two purposes, because once you take the money, you’re blackmailed.

Reiner Füllmich:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
So I– I mean what– I mean, Markel was a perfect puppet of the United States. When… did she ever represent Germany’s interest?

Reiner Füllmich:
No, she didn’t. And she didn’t even blink when it was obvious that her phone was tapped.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
She didn’t care.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. And neither do the British. Or the French.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Or the Italians.

Reiner Füllmich:
My God. It kind of… confirms what we’ve all been hoping that it’s not true, but it’s so obvious, after all. Why do they all walk in lockstep? Why is there only one policy worldwide? I mean this is only true for the… western world, probably. Not so much for the Africans or the Asians– or would you… put them in the same… bag? Are they also– no, they, at least to me, they don’t appear to be puppets of the of the Americans.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, some of them I think may be. But you see, what was the world? It was Europe. That’s where…

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And where was science and technology. So that’s what the United States focused on.

Reiner Füllmich: [3:46:50]
Yeah, that makes sense. Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
It focused on the part of the world– the only other part was the Soviet Union, which United States couldn’t control.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mmhm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And at the time, you know, China was extremely backward still. So this is why, I think, the– Washington focused on that: being sure Europe was under their thumb.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
But of course it was easy to do, because of the alleged Soviet threat. Here’s the Red Army sitting ready to overrun Europe. And Europe can’t possibly protect itself. And who can? Well, the Americans, saviour, and so you have to cooperate. It was a gradual… you know, process of taking… control. The Cold War was very important to putting Europe under Washington’s thumb. And I think the Russian threat is important to keeping Europe under Washington’s thumb. And we’re witnessing in Ukraine the revival of the Russian threat–

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah, all of a sudden.

Paul Craig Roberts:
even… though the Russians don’t really cooperate very much. But still, there’s no alternative narrative to what comes from Washington.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah, there’s no– there’s always two sides to a coin, but we… only hear one side and it’s “the aggressor is Russia, it’s Putin, he’s dangerous, he needs to be… kept at bay, we have to do something about it, we have to employ all our military might including the military might of our allies, including Germany’s military might, which practically doesn’t exist.”

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah, it doesn’t exist.

Reiner Füllmich: [3:48:54]
But there is another side to this story. I think you know something about the financial implications and the geopolitical background of the Ukraine-Russia conflict that might even end up– I think that’s what you are afraid is going to happen– that might even end in a wider European conflict.

Paul Craig Roberts: [3:49:17]
Yes. I’ve been afraid of it. Initially I’ve thought the Russians were making a mistake accepting so many provocations for so long.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
When you get in the habit of accepting provocations, then the people delivering it become careless about delivering provocations. And you have to remember that the Kremlin has accepted the neo-Nazi elements in Ukraine’s attacks on Donbass Russians for 8 years. The shelling of… the Donbass area, which was once part of Russian itself. It’s been going on for 8 years. There have been thousands of people killed and villages destroyedand all kinds of atrocities. And… the Russians tolerated it. They actually refused the request of the breakaway republics to be reunited with Russia, like Crimea was.

And so in a way, by refusing that, Russia allowed this to go on for 8 years. And it was only the assembly of a very large Ukrainian force on the borders of what was still Donbass, not occupied by the neo-Nazis. It finally forced the Russians to act, because they had permitted– I think if they had permitted the Ukrainians to overrun the Donbass, The support for Putin inside Russia among the nationalists, the patriotic elements would have collapsed, and he would have been in trouble.

So they had to finally do something. But you see, they let it go so long, it almost got out of control. So that was my concern: that if you accept these provocations, they continue. And then somebody blunders across a red line, and then the thing becomes more serious. Well, I think the same thing is happening in the way the Russians have proceeded in their limited military operation. Which is not to conquer Ukraine; it’s simply to protect the Donbass Russians. You see, all of their activity, all the military activity is in the [eastern] part of Ukraine, except for Kyiv, which they have to… encircle. But they’re not bothering– I mean, the eastern part. That– they’re not bothering the western part of Ukraine.

Well, what they needed to do was to have a lightning-fast operation; you know, within 48 hours. Because that would have, first of all, prevented the west from all of its psy-ops operation, which further blackens Russia, creates more hatred in the world. You know, hatred is dangerous, too, for things getting out of control. It also gave more and more time for somebody to the west to blunder and cross a red line and lead to a wider war.

[3:52:46]
I mean, what if they had actually tried to impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine? That is, if United States or NATO had tried that, they would be in direct conflict with Russia.

Suppose these jet fighters from Poland are actually delivered. You see, the longer this thing goes on, the more chance there is for some fool in the west to go too far. And then the war expands. So yeah, that’s been a concern of mine. Now I understand why the Russians have gone slow. They have a policy of not using heavy weapons against civilian areas, because they don’t want to kill civilians. They really don’t even want to kill Ukrainian soldiers.

Well the minute– now that might have worked, except they announced it. Now the minute they announced it, it told the neo-Nazi militias that “Hey, look, we can locate our heavy weapons in heavily populated civilian areas, and they can’t strike us. But we can fire at them.” And that’s what they’ve done. So now the Russians are faced with having to go in and clear areas street by street, house by house, and that imposes high casualties on the Russians.

[3:54:27]
So all of this has concerned me they missed the opportunity. I thank if the Russians had gone in, solved this is 48 hours, whatever the cost, I think the rest of Europe would have said, “Hey, look at this. We’ve… got to stop enabling the Americans to provoke the Russians. Look what happens. Who can protect _us_? Well it’s obvious NATO can’t protect anybody.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts: [3:55:07]
There’s no– the NATO can’t come _close_ to raising a force that could stand against the Russian army. It’s an impossibility. And even look at what Washington was doing. They were dribbling out a few thousand troops here, a few thousand troops there. What can they do? Nothing, zilch. What good does it do to put a thousand troops in Poland? A thousand troops in Romania? They couldn’t protect themselves, much less Poland and Romania.

So I think it would have been clear and that it would have broken up NATO, which needs to happen.

Reiner Füllmich:
I agree.

Paul Craig Roberts:
and I think the Russians missed this opportunity. And what they’re going to end up doing is managing a humanitarian crisis instead of a war.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
So that’s been my criticism of them. And… I was also greatly puzzled that they allowed the overthrow of the. Ukrainian government in the so-called Maidan revolution. I mean, they went off to the Sochi Olympics, didn’t even pay any attention. It… looks almost like they have a hard time comprehending what they’re dealing with. And for all those years, they kept referring to the west as “our partners”… when it was completely obvious it was their enemies. And they had some kind of a– and they still have– this notion that, well, Communism is gone, there’s not an ideological challenge to the west. We’re just like them. We… want to be part.

And they have not understood that since they have restored their position, that they are constrained on unilateral action by Washington. And that’s unacceptable. And they don’t– they’ve got a hard time getting their minds around it. Now Putin will _say_ that, but they can’t adjust their policy… to what they know. And i think that’s… dangerous because we’ll keep provoking them. And–

Reiner Füllmich: [3:57:47]
Could it be, Mr Roberts, could it be that they make a mistake by thinking it’s the Americans or the British or it’s the Germans, instead of: Our enemy is none of the above, but rather the Anglo-American financial mafia, which is behind all of this?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
could be a mistake they’re making?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes, it is. I would put it this way: they are brainwashed about globalism. They’ve been indoctrinated during the Yeltsin era by American economists that globalism is the way. And so– And they’ve also been brainwashed to think that they need foreign exchange in order to develop, which they don’t. The central can create all the rubles they need for their development projects. But they’ve got this idea planted in their hands by the American economists. And as far as I can tell, Russia only has one economist. It’s a short name, starts with a “G”. I can’t ever remember it. But he’s pointed out over and over how the Russian central bank works against Russian interests. And it does. And it’s because they’ve got these globalist ideas.

And they… have this idea that “Oh, we have to sell our energy or we won’t have foreign exchange. And they’ve actually been stupid enough to sell their energy and billed in dollars or euros. Well that… strengthens the currency of their enemy.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mmhm.

Paul Craig Roberts: [3:59:41]
They.. if they’re going to sell their energy, they should at least bill in rubles, so it strengthens their own currency. But they can’t even get their minds around that. So what you said is right, but I think it’s… really, it’s globalism. And of course, that is a tool of the financial mafia.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And… now the other day I saw Lavrov, foreign minister, said, hey, you know, I think we’re learning a lesson: not to have made ourselves economically dependent on all these western mechanisms. It’s not in our interest.

Well… now let’s see if he believes it and if they’ve really learned that. If not, then it’s going to continue. It’s going to be provocations and sanctions and provocations and propaganda and it’ll just a deteriorate into a worse and worse situation.

Viviane Fischer: [4:00:42]
May I ask you something? So it seems that Russia and… the U. S. and Germany I mean they seem to be engaging in like, do you know, like… discussions about this new Iran atom deal, it seems. So how come, I mean, you have a situation where people seem to be fighting against one another, and at the same time, do you know, the same countries involved in something maybe productive. I mean that’s kind of weird. Could it be that we’re looking at, do you know, like some kind of giant Truman Show here? That actually, like Russia is also in bed with, you know that just like, with everyone else, and they’re just playing, like one big game here. I mean just a question.

Paul Craig Roberts:
I would answer this way. Bureaucracies have their own momentum. And the foreign affairs bureaucracy is used to talking, negotiating, going to meetings, going to conferences. And they don’t know what to do if they don’t do that. And so it… has that sort of built-in momentum, and it’ll go on until finally somebody at the top says, what the– why are you negotiating with the Americans against Iranians? They’re on our side. That just hasn’t happened yet in the Kremlin. They haven’t got their minds around it. They– I think… also a big problem is: a large chunk of the Russian intellectual class, as far as I can tell, is pro-western. They think They have to be part of the west or they’re a failure. And they have a lot of connections to the west and to the United States, and these are valuable to them. And so there are people that the Schaake and Andre Martinamoff call Atlanticist Integrationists.

[https://katehon.com/en/article/verge-nuclear-war?page=1]
[https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2018/07/17/is-president-trump-a-traitor-because-he-wants-peace-with-russia/]

They are Russians who want to be integrated into the west and they value that _more_ than they value Russian sovereignty.

Reiner Füllmich:
Wow.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And even Putin himself gets confused about this. Because he’s very much in favor Russian sovereignty, but in his recent speech, he was also speaking of his commitment to globalism. Well the two things don’t go together. You can’t be sovereign and… be commended to globalism, because _lose_ your sovereignty.

Reiner Füllmich:
That’s the point, yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:03:41]
So I think they haven’t– they’ve got that sort of problem. They’ve got big chunk of the intellectual class that’s really committed… to the west. And Putin is not a dictator– he’s not Josef Stalin, you know. He’s constrained by all kinds of powers and forces, and has to bring people along, or they have to bring him along. It works both ways. And I think that’s a big constraint on the Russians realizing the real situation and how it has to be dealt with.

Viviane Fischer:
But isn’t that like–

Reiner Füllmich: [4:04:27]
What about–

Viviane Fischer:
…everyone else, like, you know, in Germany also, we talk about, like about Germany and at the same time about globalism. So it’s the same thing. You know, it doesn’t also go together, because then globalism you have all lobbies and all these big tech and other companies like really running the show.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Right this is true. It’s true It’s… been sold to everybody. Even to the Americans who want to be a hegemony over the world, and they’re committed to globalism. I think for the Americans they think that globalism means they’re hegemic.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:05:14]
Well, you know what I think is that people are only now beginning to wake up to the realities of what globalism really is. It means corporatism, it means global corporations run everything, global corporations buy our politicians and run everything, in private-public partnership ideas that came, I think, from the World Economic Forum. What they really are is a hostile takeover of the public by the private corporations. And people are only now, because of corona, thankfully, are only now beginning to realize that that’s what’s been happening. And that’s why so many people, even though many didn’t like… President Trump, agree with him on that point. Disconnect from all these global organizations, because they’re all run by the same criminals.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. Well maybe enough people will learn. In any population, there’s only a small percentage who pay attention. And who have the intellectual capacity _to_ understand.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And of course, since there’s only one narrative, it’s not easy for them to get information. As… you know, right? I mean, that’s when you’ve been trying to do, you’re trying to–

Reiner Füllmich: [4:06:43]
Well that’s the reason… why we started this Corona Committee. Because we just couldn’t believe that there’s only one side to the story, and we just wanted answers. And we’re getting more answers than we bargained for, but… it’s, I think it’s very rewarding, in… the sense that I keep telling everyone, if somebody had told me what’s going on here two years ago, I would have said, go take your pills, everything will be fine.

But now we’re running out of conspiracy theories, and now I’m beginning to understand why over the last 15 years or so when I went to court again global corporations, I had the feeling that the cards were stacked against me.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
Because the judges were on the side of the of the global corporations, Deutsche Bank being one of them. But I’m now beginning to understand– more than just beginning to understand– what’s really going on. It’s precisely what you’re, what you’ve been explaining here.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Viviane Fischer:
… a question. Like do you know it’s… what kind of struck, strikes me, is that we have all of a sudden this, kind of this attitude of, almost like a– it’s a war hysteria, in a way. I mean, why is everyone hopping onto this topic? It’s… seems to me so very strange. I mean, we come out of this, like, if you follow the official narrative, out of this horrible virus crisis, you know. And now we should be actually like, licking our wounds and trying to get back to normal, and also prepare maybe for another virus threat in the future. You know, we just spoke to… like, from… South Africa, a doctor. And she said, well there, in like three months, there might be another wave popping up.

And so… why is everyone now in this… do you know, all excited about maybe going to war? Don’t we have other things to worry about? So what do you think? Is this like is this a big propaganda game, or I mean how is this propelled in that direction? It’s really weird to me.

Reiner Füllmich:
Is it part of the agenda? That’s the simple question.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:08:43]
Yeah, well, it’s part of the– it’s part of Washington’s agenda. I think Washington has in its head that it can destabilize Russia, because Russia is a federation. It’s… not just Russia. It’s a whole bunch of peoples. And… so, you know, we saw recently where they tried to do this in Kazakhstan, right? But Putin was very decisive about that. But they were able to overthrow Ukraine, and they’ve been using it successfully to blacken the Russians’ reputation. You remember too, they were able to arm and train the Georgian army and send it into South Ossetia. This– so, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the United States made sure large segments of the Russian empire were broken off. See, people forget Ukraine is a brand new country. It’s not quite 31 years old. It was part of Russia for centuries. Georgia was part of Russia for centuries. All of the central asia was part of the Soviet Union — Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Turkistan — all of these.

So Washington broke these off, and they’re all independent countries that can be used to cause troubles for Russia. And… so this is Washington’s idea: We’ll destabilize Russia and break it up more. And that’s how we will, you know, serve our hegemony. so we get our hegemony over the world back.

And so I think that’s… the big agenda. Now there’s a… short-term one. In the United States, it’s widely believed among the commentator class that if a president is in trouble, he goes to war, because the war unifies the country behind him. So if you listen to the American media and… public officials, you would think we were at war in Ukraine. And we’re _not_ at war.

[4:11:31]
But… everything is said as if we’re at war in Ukraine. And they’re getting the population all this, so Rusophobic, they hate the Russians, kill Putin, they’ve got people calling for Putin’s assassination. They even have social media permitting calls for Putin’s assassination. So it’s going on and on like we’re actually at war. Well this is to save the Democrats in the November elections.

Reiner Füllmich:
I think they’re… a misjudging the public the American populace. I just saw an interview with– that Tucker Carlson did with a martial arts fighter from, I think Alabama. You might have seen it, too. And he was asked about the situation in Ukraine. He said, I don’t know anything about what’s going on there, but I’ve heard some rumors. And then he tells us about how they’ve been shelling– just like what you told us– how they’ve been, the Ukrainians have been selling theDonbas for, since 2014 or so. He said, I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m not going to go over there. If my country is attacked, no problem. I’m going to dig in my heels I’m going fight to my death to protect my country. But I have no business over there.

And I think this is what a majority of the American people feel. It’s not Washington– I mean, it _is_ Washington, but it’s not the American people.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, I don’t know, but that’s not the polls show. Now I don’t trust polls. You can make a poll give you any results you want. And we know what results the narrative wants. But the polls show overwhelming American anger at the Russians. And they didn’t show this a short time ago, but now they show it. So when you tell them lie after lie after lie– You see, most Americans don’t know anything about the shelling in Donbas for 8 years.

It was never reported here. It’s only people who want to know what’s going on and make the effort and whu can think independently. And will, can exist despite their peers’ disagreement. They’re the ones who tend to know. And there are not that many of them.

So no, I don’t– I think, I think this is working for the… Democrats, because the Russians– sorry, the Republicans, they’re just as Russophobic. If you look at the republican senators, they’ve all got all kinds of extreme measures they want to use against… the Russians. Now of course if any of those were used, we’d be at war. So we have the funny situation with the Biden administration has got more sense than a lot of the Republicans senators. It wants the _appearance_ of war but doesn’t want to be in one. It’s clear the Americans do not want, that Washington does not want to be in this war.

It’s clear. Because they can’t fight it,except on a nuclear level. We… have no conventional capability of confronting a Russian army. And so war would be “poof”. So we have… the appearance of being in a war. That’s what people are thinking; they think we’re at war. We’re going to send–

Reiner Füllmich:
It’s just like the _other_ illusion, the corona illusion.

Paul Craig Roberts:
That’s what narratives can do– they can create a fictional reality. And everybody lives in the matrix. And… everything they’re told is fictional. What they– that’s their world, and that’s the way… it works. We saw it, you saw it with the… corona narrative.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
It was an orchestration. And we are now having a war orchestrated.

Reiner Füllmich:
What about sanctions, Mr Roberts, what about the sanctions? Are they going to do the trick, or are they hurting us, Europeans and the Americans, more than they’re hurting the Russians?

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:16:18]
As far as I can tell, they’re mainly falling on Germany.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And… they’re going to have some effect on the United States.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
But you see, no one bans the import of Russian oil and gas except the United States. And we don’t import the gas, and only a little bit of the oil. So, I don’t understand the oil price being up when there’s nothing happened to supply. So I assume it’s just the oil companies using crisis to raise the price, and then it’s just the fear factor in markets. There’s always a fear factor in things.

So, but we are– the sections… see, they excluded minerals, because the west can’t do without the Russian minerals. And Germany excluded energy, because they can’t do without the energy. And I saw Deutsche Bank said, no we’re not stopping our operations in Russia. And so it looks to me like the sanctions are an insult to Russia, more than a real factor.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:17:45]
Now I think a lot of the Russian economists think, “Oh, this is serious, this is serious,” because they are locked into the belief that Russia has to have foreign currencies. And it has to have access to borrowing abroad.Well, that’s their brainwashing. They got that from Harvard.

On the other hand, the Russians have been extremely slow in imposing sanctions. Now _that’s_ who has the sanction power. It’s Russia. They didn’t bring the west to its knees in a split second. All they’ve got to do is turn off the energy. What happens to Germany?

Reiner Füllmich:
That’s what they’re doing right now.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Are they turning it off?

Reiner Füllmich:
They said they’re not going to export any more oil and gas to Germany.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Okay. Well then, that’s– In my view, they didn’t need to have their military operation in Ukraine. They could have just said, we’re going to turn off the energy. That’s all they needed to do. And Germany would probably forced us to to make some agreement about Ukrainebecause– I read a statement from the cChief executive office of a large European energy grid company. I forget the name of the company. And he said that if the Russians turn off te gas to Germany, we’ll have to take Germany off the European grid. And it means the entirety of German industry will be closed.

Well that’s what the guy in Europe in charge of the energy distribution said. Well if that’s true, well who has the power? The Russians. What if the Russians just nationalized all of the foreign investment in Russia? If we’re freezing their bank reserves, why don’t they just say, Okay, everything that’s invested here, we’ve now nationalized. And we’ll pay you in rubles. At the current rate– it’s so depressed.

There’s all kinds of things that one– they could just say, Well okay, no more minerals. There’s all kinds of things that they could– They don’t do it. They’re not aggressive. That’s what it comes down to.

We’re all fearful of the aggressive Russians. They _could_ be very aggressive, I think. They don’t use it. Or they have to be– you know, it takes them for ever to figure out: “Well we… got something we can use back.” And I think again this reflects their commitment to being part of the west, to having good relations. I read a few days ago, the Russians were bragging about how reliable they were, as energy suppliers, how they weren’t going to do anything but fulfill their contracts. Their… mineral exporters were saying, “We’re keeping all our calm, we’re not going to reply in kind.” And all this, and all this.

You know, you look at them, they take punishment after punishment, insult after insult. And they continue to try to integrate themselves in the west by having good relations, fulfilling their contracts. And it really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. It’s almost like they can’t let go of the notion of being part of the west. And this is their great weakness. This is– if they’re defeated, that’s vwhat will defeat them. Because it leaves them vulnerable to all the filtrations, and that weaken. You know, they still permit western-financed non-governmental organization to operate, in Russia, against the Russian government. They still permit it.

[4:22:09]
They’ve got western-financed newspapers. Okay, what lesson from this… It’s really quite amazing. and they think they’re proving how democratic they are. “Look, see, we tolerate all this opinion. And we allow fifth columns to operate against us. and sixth columns to operate against us.

And this is not the sign of an aggressive, hostile power. It’s… almost the sign of a fool.

Reiner Füllmich:
Almost.

Viviane Fischer:
I can’t imagine the Russians to be fooled. I mean, that’s really surprising, because why shouldn’t there be a lot of clever tactical thinking and strategic thinking people there as well? You know, that’s– why should it only be the Americans or like the people maybe behind, you know, the lobbyists or like financial interest groups behind the American government, or what we maybe, people we don’t see who are putting the strings? Why shouldn’t they be also in Russia like seeing things that… are going on? Seeing these options that you just alluded to. That’s… really strange. Maybe it’s really they’re in cahoots, I don’t know.

Paul Craig Roberts:
I understand… your point, but you see, I think my explanation I gave.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
They have this idea of globalism, and they have this idea of being part of the west.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And that requires all kinds of openness. And it… comes at the cost of sovereignty. And so– and they have this element in their intellectual classes,

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
that’s committed to being part of the west. And they value that more than they value sovereignty. Because, you know, if you’re a nationalist– Ooh… that means you’re a Nazi, right?

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:24:09]
This is why Europe can’t get any representation in its own government against all of the immigrants that pour in.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm. Mm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
See, look at– who is the nationalist in France? It’s a woman… Marine Lepen.

Reiner Füllmich:
Lepen.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah, well, “she’s… a Mazi”. The French are even afraid to vote for her. But she represents France, French people, that is. And well she’s– “that means she’s a racist.” She’s a nationalist, and “nationalist” is dirty word. It’s a dirty word in Germany. It’s, you know.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
You’re not supposed to be a nationalist. It’s not just the Russian intellectuals that have that idea. It’s everywhere. It’s here. I mean, look at United States. Ah, we’re so concerned with Ukraines borders. But we’re not concerned about our own. The border with Mexico is wide open. The president of the United States can’t even get a fence put up. They’re pouring in. They’re allowed to vote in New York City. Non-citizens, non-American citizens are now allowed to vote in New York City. The Democrats are trying to get what they call an election reform passed. And what the reform basically means is that anybody can vote. You can fly in, get off the plane and go vote.

So they’re… essentially trying to destroy the whole concept of citizenship. This is a commitment of the Biden administration. And that’s what– they’re tired– I don’t say this because I’m Republican. It’s just a fact.

It’s what all their election reform is about. It’s why the United States Department of Justice is investigating the states, the red states, where there are Republicans, who, in response to the last presidential election, are trying to tighten up the electoral process so that you actually can’t vote unless you are a citizen resident of the state. And this is now being attacked as violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

So, what I’m illustrating is that the whole concept of… an ethnic-based country– which is what a nation is; it’s not a nation if it’s a Tower of Babel.

Reiner Füllmich:
That whole concept is being diluted.

Paul Craig Roberts:
It’s being everywhere. And so I would say: you know, it’s not just the Russians.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-mm.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:27:25]
And… of course, one of their witnesses, as I’ve said, and one that Washington is focused on, is it’s a federation of different peoples. They’re not just Russian.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-mm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And… so… I think that kind of… gives my explanation of the situation and all the vulnerabilities. And it’s… why it’s so hard to find a leader. Who is he going to lead? And… it’s hard to lead a Tower of Babel.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:28:12]
You mean in the US, or anywhere?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Anywhere.

Reiner Füllmich:
Everywhere? Yeah, I agree. Yeah, this is– you know what? Right from the start, Wolfgang Wodarg has been trying to ask a question, but doesn’t realize that he is muted… That’s why he, right from the start, said that we have to come, we have to go back to, into the regions, because _that’s_ where democracy starts. Grassroots democracy. There can’t be globalism. Globalism is the opposite of democracy; it’s top-down rather than bottom-up. So that’s what we’re all going to have to look for: get back to real democracy, by getting the sovereignty back into the regions, in particular here in Europe.

Paul Craig Roberts:
That’s right. And that reqires assimilation… of… immigrants who are not your ethnicity.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:29:10]
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And no– there’s no assimilation going on. There’s none in Europe, none in the United States.

Reiner Füllmich:
And that’s intentional.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And this… makes it very difficult. So–

Reiner Füllmich:
Wolfgang wants to ask a question,I want to ask a question. Maybe we can hear him. Wolfgang–

Wolfgang Wodarg: [4:29:33]
Yes, I have a question. I want to– I think of the system, society as self-organizing societies. With a leader in old times, as a democracy in new ages and in Greece, in old towns of Greece, 2000 years ago. So they, there was some– there’s different systems. But you could always distinguish a system from other systems, whatever you call them. But there is one thing that has already globalised, very successfully, for centuries. And this is the economic system. The economic subsystem, which should _use_ national systems– it has globalised. This was colonialism, which is– the money was, was just governing the world. And this is still the money. Because it’s so easy.

The economic system, the money system, everyone understands without knowing any language. There are red number; there are black numbers. And with that you can– everyone knows. And so it’s so easy to globalize this system. It’s dominant system, and all the other very important values which make people live together peacefully. All the other values are very difficult to transport. You have to discuss a lot to agree. But with the money, you needn’t discuss– red numbers, black numbers. And this is why this has globalized so fast. And we have to think how we– which role the money should play in future. If you want to change society, I think we have to find a new way to exchange our… goods. I don’t know how to do it but it’s– the money is globalised. We cannot change that.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:31:24]
Well… I… think you’re right, especially in the sense that… money is greed. It’s the power of greed taking over all other things. And once that happens, it’s– I don’t know how you get it back. But, in the more limited sense of money– The British Empire was based on the British pound. It was the world reserve currency. And after World War II, United States took that away from Great Britain and… thereby ruined them,

And made the dollar the world reserve urrency. And this is really the main source of American power, because it means United States can pay its bills by printing money. And governments hold the debt of the United States Gvernment in the form of dollar-denominated Treasury bills and bonds.

[4:32:44]
Well, money in _this_ sense can be… shattered. And United States is doing a pretty good job of destroying its own currency, with the sanctions. Because it causes countries to realize, hey, you know, if you hold your central bank reserves in dollars, the Americans can freeze them. They can confiscate them.

“So… why are we holding them in dollars? And, oh, it’s becauses international trade is largely settled in dolars. So that’s not in our interest, is it. So why don’t we settle our exchanges in our own currencies?”

And you see, this is starting to happen, but it’s very slow, even with the Russians and the Chinese. They now have begun settling their trade between themselves in their own currencies, not the dollar. But the dollar is still used. But they’re supposed to be working away from that. Well. I think these latest sanctions have made it clear to a lot of people that

“We don’t want to be in the dollar system. They can… cut you… off from bank settlement. They can freeze your central bank reserves, and so on.”

And so what you may see is… one of the aspects of the power of money, being the central reserve currency, role, being broken up.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:34:34]
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And that may help in some way bring back more of a national consciousness. And that may help restore the values that a national consciousness has to have to exist, other than– it can’t just exist on greed. So–

Reiner Füllmich:
I think that’s the real point. It’s not… money, it’s… greed. But what it really boils down to: it’s materialism.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
And that’s how the Russians are so brainwashed, because that’s what materialism is all about. They want to have three cars, four cars, they want to have huge houses, etcetera etcetera. That’s really what it boils… to, boils down to. Materialism versus values, real values that come with distinctive cultures.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:35:30]
Yeah. That’s right I think… the question that was asked… brings that out: that globalism destroys cultures.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And that makes it _easier_ for money to be all.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And when money is all, there is really no culture.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And so I was trying to show the answer is: if the… dollar breaks up. As the world reserve currency, it’s easier for countries to have more independence. This can further national awareness. And a national awareness is, needs a cultural awareness. Whereas a global awareness– what culture is it? You can’t– as I say xxxxxx you can’t be a Christian one day, an atheist the next, and a Saracen the third. There has to be… a culture, one of the other.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
… peacefully, yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
So that’s about all I can say about your question.

Reiner Füllmich:
Extremely– it’s extremely interesting, your views, because they do coincide with many other people’s views, but not with the mainstream views. But the mainstream, as we have come to know, doesn’t really tell us the truth. So I’m really glad that we’re getting a glimpse at the truth from someone who really knows what he’s talking about. Because you’ve been around.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. No, I… lived it. The… development of narratives: this has been CIA project for a long time. It goes back to the 1950s. It’s been documented… by people who were aware of it, or part of it. They wrote books explaining it. And we saw, with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, how the CIA was able to control the narrative and suppress all the evidence and blame this fellow Oswald.

And some years ago, I was on the Congressional staff, I think it was 1975. And there was a Senator named Church. Senator Church was holding the hearings on the CIA. We called them the Church Committee hearings. And the CIA was being called over the coals for all of its assassination attemps, its attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. And there were– you may remember some of these. They were funny. There were– the CIA was going to give him an exploding cigar, that was going to blow his head off.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
They were going to get on his roof and put poison gas down the chimney.

Reiner Füllmich:
The cigar, yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
It made you wonder if any of this was true or just some sort of way of avoiding the truth. But … the former head of CIA counter intelligence– his name was James Jesus Angleton– He had been summoned to come, be questioned, and he stopped by the office of the Congressman I was at the time working for. And the Congressman was at the time involved in something else, and I was assigned to meet with him to see what it was all about. And… for reasons I never understood, this character, CIA counter intelligence, said that “They’ll never find out what we do. Sometimes, we don’t know ourselves.”

But he said, “They can’t find out, because we always have a cover story ready. The cover story is ready in advance. And we hand it out to our assets in the media. So the minute it hits the news, we’ve already controlled it with our cover story.”

And he said, “We… also know that over time, cover stories wear out, you know, holes develop, people start getting suspicious, or the people who are suspicious start being listened to.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Yeah, like with corona.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Like corona. Or 9-11.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:41:11]
And… so then– but we already have four, five, six other cover stories. So once this starts, our cover story starts getting troubled and tattered, we released another. Or, we’ll release _two_. And then the proponents of one argue with the proponents of thee other over which of these cover stories is true. And it gets further and further away from what actually happens.” He said, “This is why you can never find out what we do.”

And I remembered that when there was a big hoopla and the market crashed, about the Saudi Arabian role in 9-11. Do you remember that?

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
A few years ago and all of a sudden, it was the Saudis, the Saudies… I said, well, that’s the perfect case of what Angleton had told me. Because the 9-11 story was wearing out, the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth had pulled up more and more and more and more evidence that the builders could not possibly have fallen down the way the official story says. And once that story was in trouble, look! It changed. Ah, the Saudis did it.

So… I think that… that’s what we’re… always up against. And it makes me wonder if the corona thing is over, or if they’re going to release another package. I mean, why don’t they just released something else? And we… now have the Russians telling us that they found all these documents in Ukraine about the American working with Ukrainians on these biowarfare pathogens on And that… they were actually working pathogens that they could make ethnic-specific.

Reiner Füllmich:?
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Now we can say, oh this is just Russian propaganda. Which, of course, is what would be said. But, you know, why… should the Russians make this propaganda? They already know nobody’s going to believe it.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:43:48]
I find it credible, by the way.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. I, well, I– of course it’s credible.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-mm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
But–

Viviane Fischer:
Why were they doing all this in the Ukraine and not in the U.S. or in other places? Is that a hot spot for these biowarfare labs?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well. it was a… puppet state that we control.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Georgia. In Georgia, too.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. No… way of investigating.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm mm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
You see, they they do it here too. But I think because of the gain-of-function research which was done at the University of North Carolina,

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
that Fauci had to transfer to Wuhan

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
I think this caused a little bit of problems here. And so they’d rather have it somewhere else. Who’s going to find out in Ukraine? You see.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:44:48]
The Russians!

Paul Craig Roberts:
The– well, the Russians.

Reiner Füllmich:
But nobody will believe them.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. That’s right. So in a way, we’re protected, because the Russians found it, and we know that’s propaganda.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
But I think that what people don’t understand– I mean, everyone’s forgotten what’s good and evil, you know. And over the centuries, the liberals have destroyed the concept of evil. Because man can be perfected, and all of this. But I figure evil is very much alive, and it’s loose in the world. And… that’s what we’re really confronted with.

Reiner Füllmich:
That’s what ee’re confronted with. And it’s all coming out now. That’s the only good side to this story.

Wolfgang Wodarg: [4:45:43]
I think they they will have big problems to find a good bioweapon for them. There are many constraints, because you– it’s very difficult to find the right targets. The only way you you can find the right targets with a biological substance is giving vaccines. There you give it directly. If you convince people to take a vaccine, you can direct the bioweapon. But if you just spread it in the air, it’s not possible. Our immune system helps us, and you cannot find the right target. There are so many side effects. Collateral damage is very big, and it’s not controllable. But with vaccines, this is what they did. You can– and now they have vaccines what we don’t know what is in. Because it’s not constant. They can do, give some vaccines there, give others there, and it’s not controlled by those corrupted institutions that should control.

And this is a… big thing. As long as we tolerate to be vaccinated by those criminals, we are at risk.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:46:52]
Sure. Of course–

Reiner Füllmich:
Absolutely.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Asolutely. And one other thing I could add to everything I’ve told you. A number of years ago an economist– named George Spiegler, the University of Chicago, he won the Nobel Prize– he pointed out, this was decades ago, that the trouble with regulation is: the regulatory agency is always captured by the industry it’s regulating. And of course, we see that with the NIH [National Institutes of Health], CDC [Centers for Disease Control]. Food and Drug Administration. They’re _run_ by–

Wolfgang Wodarg: [?]
Yes.

Paul Craig Roberts:
former executives of the harmaceutical companies. They’re _completely_ captured by the industry. So they don’t regulate anything. And _all_ of the regulatory agencies in the United States are like this. The Environmental Protection Agency is run by oil– is run by polluters. The WHO, the international patient agencies, they are all run by private… interests. They all put their bosses where they need. And they– okay, they don’t have the same interest, all those people going for money with a greed. They combat each other. But they always organize like different mafia organizations. They find out “this is yours, this is… mine, then we can cooperate”. They negotiate, for sure, but they don’t care about what we call democracy and what we call the interest of the people. They just take the agencies which we… are used to rely on, and they make us blind, that we don’t see what they do with them.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:48:47]
Right. It’s the financial mafia.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Yes.

Reiner Füllmich:
Exact. And this is– and it’s true for the SEC, for example.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
They’re supposed to regulate the banks. Well… of course they’re captured by the banks. The same is true in Germany, by the way. All of the regulatory agencies have been captured by the industries that they’re supposed to regulate,

Paul Craig Roberts:
That’s right.

Reiner Füllmich:
including the financial industry, which I always now call financial mafia.

Paul Craig Roberts:
That’s right. And here, the woman who tried to regulate the over-the-counter derivatives, back before the big blow-up. The Chairman of the Federal Reserve, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the SEC, all ran to Congress, said “Stop her! Stop!” And they said, “Markets are self-regulating.”

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah, right.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:49:47]
And they stopped her. And the thing blew up, just like she said it was going to blow up. So you can see how far we have to go to restore any sort of accountability in government, because the enemy holds all levels in the structure.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And it’s going to take a lot of effort and… determination on the part of people. And of course, you can never count on more than 10 percent of the population.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm. That’s enough, though.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And so… but that’s enough. That’s enough. They get involved. But who knows? We just we don’t know. They can do whatever they want to do, because they controll the narratives.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:50:37]
Yeah. For the time being but their time is up. We’ll soon find out.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, I think… that they’ll be beat on the covid narrative, but by then they’ll have another one.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:50:54]
Well, the big question is: how many times can you be lied to, until you realize that this person is the liar? There’s there’s a… saying in Germany: he who lies to you once will never be trusted again. This is not exactly true in the real world, but I think this is the right time to put this to the test. And I think if people understand, as some people are beginning to understand, that the same people who brought us corona– the same politicians, the same mainstream media– now brought us the Ukraine crisis. If they understand that there may be a pattern behind this, if they begin to ask questions, that’s the beginning of the end for the other side.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:51:43]
Right. But remember, now, a lot of these things happen across generations. We had the Gulf of Tonkin.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
They used that to get the Vietnam war going. Okay. In… modern times we had… 9-11. We had Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction. We had all the lies about Gadaffi, we had Syria’s use of chemical weapons. You see what I mean? And now we have Russian invasions. It’ll go on– and the people, they always fall for it. And then by the time they’ve learned, “Hey, that was wrong,” they’ve fallen for the next one.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:53:40]
Well maybe the–

Viviane Fischer:
What other narratives would you see on the horizon?

Paul Craig Roberts:
Oh… I don’t know. I… I’m worried they’re going to let loose another pathogen. Because Bill Gates is out saying, “There’s one on its way.”

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And…

Wolfgang Wodarg:
The next virus will be on the internet.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:53:07]
Yeah. I– you know, It’s… hard to know. And it’s really hard to know how this Russian thing is going to turn out.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:53:18]
Mm-hm. Yeah, it can spin out of control in no time.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. It could spin out of control. And it’s–And of course, if they really want to take us all over, they’ll just move to digital money.

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm. And the digital passport and that’s what–

Paul Craig Roberts:
Well, we won’t even need the passport. If the money is digital–

Wolfgang Wodarg:
It doesn’t help them if they move to digital money, if we don’t accept this. If we exchange where we live, with the different currency, which they don’t have. We have to reorganize in small…regions. And I think they are very afraid of such development. And we are… trying to build up such alternative regions where we can exchange what we do, without being dependent of any digital money– of dollars, of euros or things they… have in their hands. We have to take this power away, that comes with the centralised money. This will be very, very difficult, living together without what we are used to use.

But I think if we really want to change the world, we have to think of that.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes.

Reiner Füllmich:
It’s the only way out. The only way out. We have to disconnect from these global entities, whatever it is– global corporations, global NGOs, they’re all run by the same criminals, as I said. Disconnect and build our own democracies in our regions. Set up our own judiciary, even. I think that’s probably the most important one, the judiciary. Because without a functioning judiciary, without an independent judiciary, rule of law, there is no democracy. So that’s what we need. We need a new system.

We need a new system of economics, of education, and health care. Those four systems, that’s what we need. And I think it’s possible. We can do it, even if we’re only 10 to 15 percent. We’re the ones who are creative. The other ones are those who follow orders and who don’t ask questions.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:55:21]
Right. That’s true. I agree with this. It may be it happens just because the other system is so rotten.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah. It’s about to collapse. It is thoroughly corrupt.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. And faith in it may collapse..

Reiner Füllmich:
There’s nothing you can do. You can’t fix it. I’ve been thinking about this for a long time now, but there’s nothing you can do. And pretty much everyone who we spoke with, everyone who… has some experience in life, agrees with that. This system is unsalvageable. You can’t do anything.

Paul Craig Roberts: [1:18:39]
Except violent revolution.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yes.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Then afterwards, you have to have something new.
Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts: [4:55:58]
Yeah. And that’s hard.

Viviane Fischer:
… like a soft revolution, like a soft– You know, switch over to a better system.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
Yes.

Viviane Fischer:
No violence.

Reiner Füllmich:
It’s happening already, Mr Roberts, in all parts of the world, even in the U.S. Our colleague Ana Garner, from New Mexico– she says that she’s working with other colleagues. She’s working on creating a new judiciary. Here in Germany there’s people who have created their own new educational system, in their region, of course. And there’s others who have created their own agricultural supply line.

So lots of people have begun to understand– and they’re the best– have begun to understand that it’s important to disconnect from there– well, truly evil forces– because that’s what this is all about.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. That’s a hopeful sign. We see it here. We see it here in small farms and co-ops and people going to locally-arranged markets.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Usually on a weekend, in order to provision themselves, avoiding the… large supermarkets

Reiner Füllmich:
Mm-hm.

Paul Craig Roberts:
We see… this happening. And there’s a lot of people who, though they’re very patriotic Americans, they don’t trust the government. And just ordinary prople, a lot of just ordinary people. … But the war is something that gets people emotionally involved, and they become irrational, and they get… organized by the government for whatever its purpose is.

And so… it’s a difficult thing, because we do, they find some way to come at that. I thank that… if we could just get a complete–

Wolfgang Wodarg: [4:58:23]
There is a very lucky fact that you cannot foresee social development, as you cannot foresee see what happens in biology. We are part of biology. We are self-organizing, and this is not a trivial thing. We– you cannot calculate our development. So just be watchful. Just be… aware of… wh… what is making you happy and what is making your neighbors happy, so that we can have a well living. We have to have this in mind. We have to have this orientation and then self-organize. But we don’t know how. We will see.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich: [4:58:57]
It’ll happen.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. Well, if there is to be hope for humanity, it has to happen, yes?

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah. Well I think we have… we’ve… come to a good ending, in the sense that we know that there’s light at the end of the tunnel, because we’re all of us– at least us 10 to 15 percent; it’s probably more in the U.S. and here in Germany, probably more like 40 percent, I hope– us in the resistance, that we’re ready to build something new. And it’s happening already. So, thank you very much, Mr Roberts. This is a pleasure, and it was… truly– I mean, learning the truth is… sometimes hard, but it’s always good. It’s always– it gives you stability; it gives you orientation. And that’s what’s happening right now. A lot of people are getting better information and understand how to make sense of what is happening.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yes. Yes, and you’re a big factor in that. I’ve see a lot of your programs. I’m really so pleased to now meet you over the internet like this. But I’ve seen a lot of your programs, and… your efforts are really important to this–

Reiner Füllmich:
Thank you very much.

Paul Craig Roberts:
… raising of consciousness, so that we realize that something _can_ be done.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
So I’m just thankful that there are people like you and those associated with you, For the activities that you do. I think that the covid narrative has collapsed.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And… despite Trudeau in Canada holding out. I was very thrilled to see that the Austrians had withdrawn their vaccine mandate.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And I never understood these mandates. They’re so counterfactual, no scientific evidence whatsoever for it. Everything was against it.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yeah.

Paul Craig Roberts:
And yet we saw governments trying to do these things.

Wolfgang Wodarg:
You know, if Marlboro could,… they would force us to smoke, by law.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Okay, that… sums it up. So thank you, gentlemen.

Reiner Füllmich:
All right, thank you for joining us. This was extremely helpful, and I’m sure a lot of people are nowt motivated to keep going and create your own new systems, because that’s the only way to do it.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. The government is your enemy.

Reiner Füllmich:
It is, in all of these places, in the western world, that is.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah. All right. Thank you.

Reiner Füllmich:
Thank you very much. See you again.

Paul Craig Roberts:
I hope so.

Reiner Füllmich:
Yes, absolutely. in a new system.

Paul Craig Roberts:
Yeah.

Reiner Füllmich:
Have a… great weekend.

Paul Craig Roberts: [5:02:05]
Thank you.

 


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