Foundation Corona Committee, 78th meeting on October 12th, 2021
Meredith Miller (Traumatherapeutin, Autorin, Rednerin [Homepage], USA)
in conversation with Viviane Fischer and Reiner Fuellmich
(Original language: English)
[Transcript from Team corona-ausschuss-info.com +]
Viviane Fischer [02:31:51h]
We have Meredith and Miller, are you with us?
Meredith Miller
I’m here.
Reiner Fuellmich
OK, I’m sorry to keep you waiting.
Viviane Fischer
So you are a trauma coach, author and speaker, and you, as we have here the information that you teach the mindset tools and actions to help others recover after relational trauma. And in fact, at this point in time, we have a really problematic relationship between government and the people. So this is also a trauma. We are basically in the trauma post or still ongoing trauma constellation. What is it that you would do? You pointed out also that we are looking at some sort of abuse dynamics here. I’ve been thinking that because everyone is aware of my body, my choice, I mean, everyone’s so aware of like that there shouldn’t be any transgressional things that you respect the limits of the other physical limits, especially in psychological limits. And all of a sudden, all that is gone. Government is like forcing you to do things you don’t want and neighbors are forcing you, or pushing you to do things you don’t want. And it’s a very strange dynamic. Yeah, I’m curious what you have to say about this.
Meredith Miller
It really is. What we’re looking at is from the micro to the macro example. So in the micro example, we have the individual and their relationship, for example, an abusive relationship that an individual is in or the relationship the individual has with the government. But then as we move along the continuum to the macro, we see systems forming. We see families, workplaces, organizations, social groups and society at large. And we see the same patterns from the individual, from the micro level to the macro. What happens in the systems starting from the family all the way through society is it takes on additional characteristics because the system is greater than the sum of all the individual parts that make it up. What we can look at is the appearance of these same patterns of abuse. And I think one of the most important things to look at is the cognitive dissonance, cognitive dissonance. For example, at the individual level, let’s say you have someone that you love a sister or a friend, someone in an abusive relationship and you sit them down and you say, “look, I think you’re being abused. This happened. That happened, that happened”. And what you’re doing is you’re presenting evidence, facts, logic to this person about what you’re noticing. But what happens that person is not going to understand. They’re not going to accept what you’re saying. They’re going to start to provide excuses, explanations, rationalizations that counter every point you’re making. And if you insist on showing them the facts and the evidence, they’ll start to attack you so they can dismiss what you’re saying. Why? Because all of this information that you’re presenting this, these this evidence and these facts creates this deep mental conflict with what they truly want to believe. They want to believe this person is the love of their life, or they want to believe that their abusive parent loves them and wants the best for them. And this mental conflict is irreconcilable. So what happens is the brain and not the logical part of the brain, but the more primitive parts of the brain goes into denial. It’s like a short circuit on an electrical system. This is a built in survival mechanism into the human being. But unfortunately, this is also what keeps people stuck in abusive relationships because they stay stuck in that state of denial of defense where they can’t see the truth. So there really is no waking people up to the abuse. There is no presenting them with sufficient amounts of truth in evidence and logic that will snap them out. How does a person come out of that? is like a frying pan to the head lesson. It’s something so shocking that it pierces their denial, and the truth becomes a visceral experience. Not a logical experience, not an intellectual experience, but a visceral experience through which the person can no longer unseen what was just seen.
And so we see that same dynamic, the cognitive dissonance. We see lots of individuals in the cognitive dissonance. Many people want to believe that their government wants the best for them, that the government is there to take care of them to protect for them. To provide for them in some kind of way, and they would never do such a thing such as that, which we’re observing now in the world and we can even look at terminology. You know, it’s amazing the abuse of language that they’ve done since the beginning since 2020 when this hypnotic induction began into this trans words like “social distancing”: this phrase in itself elicits cognitive dissonance. Why? Because these two words are complete opposites. We have social, which means connection and to the mammalian brain (because humans are mammals) social means safe. Being connected with other mammals and other humans makes us feel safe. It makes the nervous system feel safe. Distancing is the exact opposite. It’s a disconnection. It’s not social. It makes us feel unsafe. And when then we put these two words together social and distancing, which evoke completely opposite feelings and understanding the brain enters into that short circuit, into denial. It becomes very difficult to think when we’re in that state.
Reiner Fuellmich
Well, unless you question what’s going on, right?
Meredith Miller
Correct, and that’s very difficult for someone who’s in that state because they’ll have moments of lucidity. I think I hear Ariane talking about this earlier, too, where maybe some of these leaders even have moments of lucidity or they don’t entirely believe what’s going on. What you see in an abuse victim is they go in and out of truth and fantasy. And so they’ll have moments where they can see it. But it’s so overwhelming and so uncomfortable that the brain will short circuit back into denial until they get to that point where something so shocking happens. And we may be nearing that point in the world that maybe that crisis on top of crisis, on top of crisis, it seems like we’re getting to that point now where they’re going to start layering on top of the pandemic more and more crises, the supply chain, the food, the energy, like all of these things are happening at once. And so it may be that more people start to wake up as the crisis pierces their denial.
Reiner Fuellmich
When I first heard the word social distancing, I immediately thought this does not make any sense. Something is not right. And because it’s obvious, one is the opposite of the other, it doesn’t match. And then after we interviewe, one of the people who we interviewed was the Holocaust survivor Vera Sharav, and she explained to us about euphemisms, euphemisms. And that’s what this is. It tells you that distancing yourself from others is social because it means, it’s safe at the exact opposite is true. And the funny thing is that what you’re saying is that many people who fall victim to this, just like in an abusive relationship, do not have the capacity to see that it doesn’t make any sense.
Meredith Miller
Right, because in that state of denial and defensiveness, the person has no access to the logical brain because the logical brain is the neocortex, it’s that human aspect, the evolutionary brain. But then it comes back to the primal stance of the brain, the primal parts of the brain, which are concerned with survival. It becomes survival. And so they’re listening to the propaganda to those repeated phrases, the repeated language that’s being used that tells them what saved, which is, as you said, the exact opposite of save.
Viviane Fischer
When you looking at this abusive situations and you made the example, that you have someone where there is love involved in the beginning and then it maybe someone has a bad partner choice kind of that, it’s maybe like a codependent on like someone who’s abusive, you know, kind of this kind of trauma based partner picking. So in this case, there was maybe like love or like friendship involved in the beginning, and then it’s not working the right way. But here would you describe like the situation that we have to our government is also some sort of love? Or is this close feeling of closeness or like fatherly motherly constelation? Or is this like this abuse what we saw in this Stockholm Syndrome is maybe even love induced in a sick way?. Maybe that’s also what we’re seeing now that these people are going over the top because some of them are really defending the government that maybeonce they were too critical, like in the past saw a lot of things, corrupt and whatever. But now it’s like they are heroes. To some extent that’s happening for some people. What do you think like? Is that a combination of things?
Meredith Miller
Yeah, it’s actually the abuse cycle. So there’s two phases in the abuse cycle what we call love bonding, and that doesn’t have to be in a romantic sense. It can be someone giving you compliments, paying you for things, buying you things, sending you economic stimulus money in the mail, for example, or providing free food or the government just telling you “we want the best for you”, “your health matters” . This is the important thing, we just want the best for you, we’re trying to help. And so that’s the love bonding aspect. And then the other cycle, the other phase of the abuse cycle is the devaluation. You’re dirty, you’re sick, you’re dangerous. You’re putting people at risk, so they go back and forth between the two. So, for example, another example love bonding could simply be the absence of abuse, the temporary absence of abuse. So in a relationship, there’s going to be moments where the abuser senses they’ve gone a little too far. The victim is starting to figure it out. They need to pull the victim back in. So in society, they push the lockdowns a little too hard. They start to notice people are suddenly starting to maybe wake up a little bit or starting to question things. So then they set people free for a while. “Oh, you can travel, you can do things now. You can take off the mask. This is temporary”. And now we see the lockdowns coming back. We see the restrictions coming back. So it’s going back and forth in this cycle. It’s like an intermittent reinforcement, which again is part of the foundation of the cognitive dissonance. So it keeps people very confused.
Viviane Fischer
That’s very interesting. And do you think that’s part of a plan or is this, like a social engineering kind of procedure? Or do you think they just feel instinctively, “we’ve gone a little too far, let’s give them this kind of thing”. Or is this like, you know, structured because it seems to be to me, it seems very orchestrated.
Meredith Miller
From my perspective as well. It seems highly orchestrated. I agree with Arianne when she said about this is actually a continuation of Nazism, because after World War to America, for example, imported hundreds of Nazi scientists and Operation Paperclip, and they put them to work in psychiatry and government organizations. In psychiatry and psychology they ended up working on behavior modification science. This became the foundation of all the social media. We see that social media was a key component in making this work. Ten years ago, this wouldn’t have worked. They actually tried the pandemic thing in 2009 and failed. Why? because the social media was just in its infancy. It was just starting. They knew the science behind the social media, (some Facebook executives even talked about this), they saw the science, they knew what they were doing and they did it anyways. That is behavior modification, the foundation of that is like provocation, reaction, solution. They provoke an emotion which fear is the most powerful emotion for this, right? They provoke fear, then that creates an emotional reaction. And then it gets people to beg for a solution to that fear, which the government is happy to provide. It’s the solution. It’s everything they were driving us toward from the beginning. This is the cycle. And so it seems that this has been decades in the making, it’s been like a very slow and gradual buildup, and now we’re kind of here at the vertical part of the curve where it’s happening exponentially fast.
Reiner Fuellmich
When you were saying that may be the kind of the shocking experience that is necessary to wake people up could be the piling up of all of these crises on top of each other. Does that mean that people, some of the people who are still sitting on the fence and not beyond who can still be aproched. Does that mean that if it gets to be too much for them so that they’re going to think this cannot be real, is that the kind of situation that you expect?
Meredith Miller
I am hopeful that more people will wake up as it intensifies. Unfortunately, it’s going to intensify in every abusive relationship. The abuse escalates even when you call them out. You know, as we’ve seen, more and more truth has come out. And if we’re going, how is this still standing? How is it still possible? How are these people not in jail? because they never admit to the crime. They just doubled down on it and they go back to that gaslighting campaign. And what we’ve seen since the beginning of 2020 is a massive gaslighting campaign for those who aren’t familiar with that term. Gaslighting is a distortion of the perception of reality to the point where a person starts to think they’re crazy for questioning the reality that’s being promoted. So we see that in the mainstream media and the news, we see it on social media with the fact checking, the censorship. Everything is meant because the whole narrative is sustained based on this gaslighting campaign. I’m hopeful that maybe more people will start to wake up as the intensity and the shock of the things that are happening pierces their denial.
The other problem is that we’re going to see an epidemic of mental illness because there’s going to be so many people that are so severely traumatized that are unable to see reality when it’s revealed to them. They’re going to go into states of mental illness. Earlier, you were talking about the delusional psychosis. That’s one of them. But we’ve even seen what happens is when people get into this state, they feel like there’s no way out. Right? That becomes part of the learned helplessness. And so then they develop self-destructive habits. It’s like a feedback loop that happens and it just gets worse and worse. And so we’ve seen, like last year, 600 % alcohol sales up. We’ve seen a great increase in drug overdoses increased in suicides last year. Some doctors were saying they saw a year’s worth of suicide in one month. We’re seeing this self-destructive.
And we’re seeing also that’s the individual. We’re also seeing relationally what this is doing in relationships between people. It’s driving people further apart. It’s causing this great polarity. It’s causing this great tension between people. And also, when we as individuals are traumatized, it becomes very difficult to connect with other people to get that coregulation that mammals need to feel safe and social because trauma is a disconnection. The pandemic, the plague that we’re in right now is disconnection. They’re having us disconnected from other people, disconnected from ourselves. Because this whole gaslighting campaign, it teaches you not to trust yourself, not to trust your perception of reality, not to trust your sense of self and your God given right to sovereignty. It’s actually part of the cult dynamics, so that’s where the system takes on additional components of the individual or that micro relationship doesn’t have. The system develops a cult dynamic where part of the cult is that your individual identity is sacrificed. It’s usually destroyed through trauma, trauma-based mind control. And as your individual identity is destroyed, it’s replaced with the group identity, which also corresponds to some of the things that Ariane was talking about earlier. That there are some individuals that have the capability of stepping out of that group identity and recognizing they have the right to think for themselves. They still have the capacity to think for themselves, because when you’re in that group enmeshment in that identity, it’s terrifying to leave, not intellectually, but at a deep, primal level in the brain because we were programed biologically for survival that we need the herd to survive. So even if the herd is marching toward the slaughterhouse, it’s easier to go along because it’s so difficult to think for yourself and it’s terrifying to be outcasted. And that’s exactly what happens to people who question the abuse. People in cults who wake up in the very basic structure of a cult and it is an abusive family. If you wake up in that abusive family to the abuse and you start to talk about the abuse, you’ll be attacked, you’ll be smeared. You’ll be hurt, you’ll be punished. The rest of the group will try to pull you back in and not allow you to have those thoughts, to have those beliefs, not allow you to individuate and separate yourself from that group.
Viviane Fischer
When we look again at the abusive constellation between maybe two people or like, also could be like what you mentioned, like a cult like that looks like some sort of sect where people join and they want to break free from that, the only thing you say is like a shocking constellation. Is there anything else that you know, motivates people to get out of that?
Meredith Miller
So when I’m working with people one on one who are trying to get out of abusive relationships, you know, I tell them that cognitive dissonance is going to dissolve in a spontaneous moment. That’s the part that we can’t control. That’s the sudden divine intervention or whatever that is that brings the shock that pierces the person’s denial. But how can a person help themselves to get there is relentlessly facing the truth, and the problem is that this goes against our entire biological programing. We were programed to seek social belonging before truth. We will sacrifice the truth in order to have the social belonging. So that’s that group dynamic. A person is going to have a difficult time doing that, even in a one on one relationship, because there’s a sense of belonging in that relationship and because the other person has told them that they’ll never find anyone else to love them. They’ll never find anyone else to accept them. And this is as best as it’s going to get. Don’t you dare leave! So the person is terrified to leave this dynamic.
Viviane Fischer
And could it be if you offer like a different peer group, you know, say, like, for instance,” it’s the grass is greener over here, come to the other side and get out of that abusive thing and have fun with us”. Is that sort of inspirational, from your experience, in situations that are not going well?
Meredith Miller
Usually, a person will reject that. They will find any way to reject you, to attack anything that’s kind of confronting with their fantasy, what they want to believe about the world. And so that’s why the victim needs to face over and over again the truth. We have victims, what’s called a sobriety list, you know, write down everything that person did from the very beginning of that relationship that was hurtful, manipulative, abusive. Why? Because as soon as their mind goes back into the denial or they want to indulge in the fantasy which they’re highly invested in, they pull out the list and they start reading these bullet points of everything that happened. And maybe at some point something jars their mind and they come back into reality, so they have to face the truth over and over again. But the thing is that this can’t come from outside. Anything that we say all the evidence or the truth we can present it has to come from inside. There has to be the internal drive. The person has to want to know the truth. And the difficulty is that doesn’t usually happen until that point, where it’s been pierced spontaneously by some event that’s taken place, that’s forced the person to see something different.
Reiner Fuellmich
What is the ultimate goal of all of this? We have spoken, for example, to former members of the British intelligence services, and they all agree. Everyone who we spoke was that this is an agenda. This is a huge psyop, psychological operation. That’s why it took such enormous training and planning. If this didn’t happen overnight, this is nothing that happened spontaneously, but rather this has been planned for probably at least a decade, maybe longer. But what is the ultimate goal of what they’re doing? It is probably totalitarianism, and that is a result of some people who are high up in power or have a lot of money being afraid that we’re going to find out about them. Is it that really the goal? Totalitarianism?. Those who are in power and who have more money than they should have, and now they’re they feel guilty about it, is it really that this is because they’re afraid to be found out and that’s why they need to get complete control over us, which is totally impossible?. Is that so?
Meredith Miller
That’s all from my perspective. I agree with that. I think the ultimate goal is to control. If you look at a psychopath in a relationship, any abuser in a relationship, what is their goal? It’s control. It may be extracting other resources. Certainly, money has something to do with it, but it’s beyond money. What does the money give them? It gives them power and control. And so if we look at this, everything that’s going on is about control. And as long as they can maintain that control under any cause, no matter how many people they have to get rid of because it’s certainly a lot easier to control a smaller group of people than it is a larger group. But it does seem to be control. That’s the ultimate goal. That’s why all of the abuse dynamics work. That’s why as soon as they sense they’re losing control of people, they’re going to come back and start giving us some something, you know, to seduce us back into the dynamic.
Reiner Fuellmich
The way out, is what I wrote down the way out is relentless confrontation with what’s reality, what’s really going on with the true facts?
Meredith Miller
That’s the way out of the cognitive dissonance. The way out of the bigger picture, I think, is self-responsibility. I think as each individual takes personal responsibility of their life and of their choices and of resolving our own traumas because we’ve all been born into this world that is founded on trauma, from transgenerational trauma and families to larger historical traumas, even birth can be traumatic. We have to look within and recognize what are the traumas that we still have left unresolved within us, work on healing those, work on taking greater responsibility of our life because that self-responsibility is the threshold between the victim stage, which is based on powerlessness, which is where the great majority of people are at right now and to the stage of being a survivor and being empowered. That’s the hardest threshold to cross. What I see in abuse is that the majority of people stay stuck in that victim stage. They don’t take the self-responsibility to get over that threshold into the empowerment. So I see the same pattern in the world. I see most people staying in that victimization, unable to take self-responsibility, hoping that the government will save them. We have to save ourselves. We have to take responsibility for our part. And I think that’s the amazing thing because we individuals form the collective. As we individuals work to heal ourselves, and more of us work, to heal and take responsibility for ourselves and what we’re producing and contributing to the world around us, even if that’s just our family are very small social circle locally, that spreads. That becomes something that ends up healing the world. I think another thing that’s a mistake is to focus on changing the world because the change starts inside. That’s the only thing we have control over the learned helplessness, complete loss of control. So people give up, they go into states of despair, makes them easy to control. So what can we take control over? Not everything that’s out there, but what’s inside here.
Viviane Fischer
Professor Desmond from Belgium, the psychologist say that the totalitarianism, what you mentioned about like the abusive situation has a tendency of growing wilder and wilder as time passes. So why is that? Is it because, you know, the abusive part is becoming more obvious to the victim?, and that’s why they think they want to push it a little bit further in order to get back on power. Is it like some self-propelling kind of scheme. Why do you think that it might be?
Meredith Miller
I think it’s that the controller, the abuser or the psychopath is seeking this thrill. It’s like a heroin addict. They need more and more and more to get the same feeling. In an abusive relationship, the abuser is chasing the dragon, looking to get more and more of that through, which means they need to go more and more beyond. They need to constantly increment the abuse that’s taking place.
Viviane Fischer
Do you think that’s the same here now?.
Meredith Miller
I think it is. It’s like an addiction. It’s a very sick addiction that they can’t control.
Viviane Fischer
It’s not just like keeping the game on because they’re afraid that they might be jailed or something. But it’s also the kick at the same time that it’s kind of fun to see people like being more and more put down and, you know, abused.
Meredith Miller
It’s both of that. It’s the perversion of needing more of that control, more thrill to get the same reward, the same feeling, the same dopamine hit that they got from it. And also, as was mentioned before, you know the fear of being found out. The imposter syndrome, which the covert form of abusers, what we’re seeing now is the covert form of what happened in Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s that was a more overt. It was more obvious. The covert is the more sophisticated version. And so the covert abuser, the more sophisticated abuser has a deep insecurity and a deep imposter syndrome. The mediocrity …. being terrified that they’re going to be exposed for being mediocre, unqualified, not the image that they’re trying to create. It’s about maintaining that image. Being terrified of being found out that they’re actually not what they’re claiming to be.
Reiner Fuellmich
The covert version of what happened in the Third Reich is becoming more and more overt now, and that means that it’s escalating, and that means, in my view, (from what you’re telling me and from what we’ve heard from all the psychologists and psychiatrists), that the other side is in a panic. Not all of them. Maybe it’s probably a mix If I get you correctly, it’s a mix of seeking the thrill and at the same time, being afraid: “oh my God, this time they’re going to really get me, this time they’re going to really find out”. We’re going to have to go further and further and further. Is that what’s happening?
Meredith Miller
I think so. And you’re right, it is becoming more overt, and that’s the thing that happens in an abusive relationship as well with a covert abuser because there are different types and of course, they can go back and forth and the tactics because when you’re behind closed doors and no one in the outside world can see, that’s when they can be more overtly abusive. But when they’re in front of other observers and people, then they have to be more covert. But over time, that covert abuser does become more and more overt.
Reiner Fuellmich
We have a friend in Finland, that I guess I shouldn’t expose her identity, but she is a very good friends with someone who works for the European Commission. And when these commissioners get together, she explained to us what her friend told her that they watched the news or they’re in a meeting and then they watched the news and watch what’s going on outside of their little European parliamentary bureau, they actually laugh their asses off because they can’t believe how stupid people are. Is that typical?
Meredith Miller
Yes. this is the thing we’re human, right? We’ve all had this thought like, how can people be so stupid? I admit I’m not above this, but this is where we need to bring in the humility to understand that this is not an intelligence thing. This is not about intelligence. This is the primal parts of the brain. The human nervous system was just programed to respond this way to stress, to abuse, to trauma. They know this. They’ve known this for decades and the research that they’ve done with trauma based mind control. They have done this on the public for a long time. They even use Entertainment Hollywood to carry these sorts of things out. So I think that we need to have compassion for this people, just like we would have imagined if that was someone that you loved and they were in an abusive relationship to have compassion, but to also have boundaries because that person will attack you if you try to show them that they’re in an abusive relationship. So it’s also important to have those boundaries and to connect with people who are living in reality, because that keeps you sane when you’re trying to escape a cult, even a family that’s abusive, you need to have allies outside of that system who are living in reality, who can validate reality because everybody living in that system is living in that delusional psychosis, the very distorted reality.
Viviane Fischer
And what’s going to happen? I mean, if it goes down, what’s going to happen to all the perpetrators? You know, I mean, are they going to wake up and see what they’ve done or will they be in some sort of denial toward, “oh, it was necessary and I did my best and well, I was always part of the resistance”.
Meredith Miller
I imagine it will be those sorts of things, you know, if I look at from the micro-level and I see, you know, when abusers are found out, what do they do? They doubled down. They played the victim. One of the things we call in the terminology of narcissistic abuse is “Darvo”: it’s an acronym, denial attack, reverse victim and offender. What does that mean? You tell a person this is abusive. They flip it around on you. Now you’re the abuser and they’re the victim. And we can watch this in the in the public dialog. Any time you try to talk about the truth or even just in the media, the way they smear conspiracy theorists and anybody trying to talk about the truth. They flip it around. They play the victim. So I fully expect a lot of these perpetrators to play the victim because that’s what they do. I have the hope that there will be some sort of Nuremberg trial again, though I hope it will be significantly better than the last one, which only brought to trial a very small amounts of the perpetrators and then imported the rest of those and installed them in society in places that they could do significantly more harm over the long term. I would hope that we can learn from that. You know, we say history repeats itself, it repeats itself because we haven’t learned. History repeats itself is the macro version of the repetition compulsion at the individual level, the individual goes through a trauma and then their whole life they choose similar people in situations that remind them of how they felt in that early life trauma because they’re seeking healing. But they’re doing this unconsciously. They’re unconsciously repeating the same traumas. That’s what we’re doing as society. We’re repeating the same traumas. I truly hope that because the level of this trauma is so big involving the entire world at the same time, I hope that the magnitude of that is going to be comparative to the magnitude of awakening potential of the possibility for us to now finally end this legacy of trauma and tragedy and abuse and violence that we’ve been repeating for so many generations so that we can make different choices and create a different future with a much better potential for humanity. I do think this is a turning point. It’s a make or break. We’re either going to go full on down that road of totalitarianism, and so I don’t know what the end will be of that, some sort of mass disaster. It’s already disastrous. I think you can get significantly worse or we’re going to choose at some point collectively because enough individuals are making the internal choice in their own personal life a different path, making different choices. And that’s the harder decision because the easy road is just to go just to follow the herd and not think and not change and certainly not heal the trauma, because that’s very challenging and painful. It’s easier just to numb it out to find distractions and escapism, which of course, they’re providing for us, right? You know, they’re providing plenty of distractions for people. They have for many decades, but especially in the last decade, there’s been so much more of distractions with the internet and things. And now they want to bring out the metaverse, the virtual reality so that when reality is so horrible, instead of facing that and resolving it and dealing with it and confronting it, people escape into the fantasy.
Reiner Fuellmich
We have to make sure that they understand that real life is much better than the fantasy version. It can in some cases it’s not, yeah, but the one of the things that Professor Desmond explained to us is that totalitarianism is self-destructive. Sooner or later, it’ll self-destruct. The big question then, is how much damage will they be able to do to us before they self-destruct? And of course nobody knows, but it is going on right now. It’s getting crazier and crazier and it’s becoming more and more overt. I have the hope that more and more people like us will come to their senses, sort of. And that that group, I think that’s about 40 % of the people are sort of like sitting on the fence and don’t know which way to go, but that that group is still approachable and that more and more of these people will begin to ask questions which will ultimately then turn the tide. It’s some people say that it’s enough of 3,5% of the population, or maybe 5% or 10% realize what’s going on. That’s good enough. I’m not so sure about that, but it definitely is important to have those who can make decisions, rational decisions on our side. I have a feeling that those who are fallen victim to this narrative are the ones who, (as one of those psychiatrists who we spoke with, explained) escape into infantilism. They don’t they don’t want to grow up. They just want to keep listening to someone telling them what to do. So this group of people cannot be approached by us, but it’s not really important. I hate to say that, but it’s not really important. Those who are willing to think outside the box and who are willing to question authority, they’re the ones who are finally going in the long run are going to make up the difference, I believe, and those are the ones who are on our side already. I hope many more will join.
Meredith Miller
Yeah, there’s really no convincing people, just like there’s no convincing a victim that they’re in an abusive relationship. There’s no convincing that group of people to see reality because they don’t want to see it. That infantilization process has been happening for a long time in society. So unfortunately, a lot of people look to the government of the state as mommy and daddy to protect them. That’s a fantasy that’s not real. And it’s unfortunate. But then there are those who have the more functional adult capacity in their brain to say “ no, I need to take the responsibility to rescue myself, to provide for myself, to provide for my family because the government is not going to do that. That’s not their job”.
Reiner Fuellmich
This is what it is about: infantilization versus self- responsibility.
Viviane Fischer
I think it’s also a rough ride for them because, you know, once it becomes more obvious to some people that’s because it’s so extreme. It’s I mean, they’re risking a lot of things, you know, they’re risking everything. It’s a game of life and death because they’re going to be socially destroyed. If it becomes obvious to a lot of people, what’s been going on.
Meredith Miller
Right. At what cost? I think that’s something Rainer had asked earlier, too. Like how far is this going, even though the totally totalitarian system eventually will implode just like every abusive relationship. But at what cost? At what cost to the individuals, at what cost to society, at what cost to human life.
Viviane Fischer
Well, I mean, we have to make sure or we have to do everything that we can to end things as soon as possible because it’s like, you know, it’s already cost quite a bit of life and it’s caused so much pain and all that. So I think it’s really about time that it collapses.
Meredith Miller
And because, like you said earlier, at the very beginning, we’re not even in the post-trauma phase yet. Right. So we haven’t even begun to see the long term effects of what’s already happened to this point. This is going especially among the children. This is going to have severe long-term repercussions. The post-trauma of this, and it’s going to require a lot of healing, even if this just ended suddenly now today no more damage. There’s still significant trauma to work through.
Viviane Fischer
Yeah, that’s true. Wow. So it’s a lot of work
Reiner Fuellmich
Ahead of us at any rate. It’s definitely worth it. It can only get better.
Meredith Miller
That’s the thing about trauma is that trauma is both destructive and awakening. The trauma destroys the sense of normality. The person never can go back to who they were before the trauma. We, as a society, will never go back to what we used to call normal. It’s gone for good. We need to mourn that part of healing the trauma is a grieving process, that’s gone now. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing, because now the awakening of the trauma allowed, that destruction of the trauma allows us to create something better, allows us to create something new. Reaching new potential that we perhaps couldn’t have contacted within ourselves individually or even as a society until that trauma took place. It comes with both a curse and a blessing.
Reiner Fuellmich
Well, I can definitely see that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Meredith Miller
I agree, and I really hope that that happens soon.
Viviane Fischer
You know what the good thing is about this also is that it’s such a huge collective trauma. I mean, it’s good and bad at the same time. But maybe if you come out of like a personal, abusive relationship, I mean, that’s maybe also something like individual guilt feelings or like anger. But now it’s also possible to hopefully join with others in this collective anger and frustration and pain and sadness. That’s also something if you do this collectively, I can see also that this might propel like the healing process, just like as if you do like, you know, self-help groups with other traumatized people. In this talking about it, like in the group together and find new ways, I think that’s that can also speed up things in a way. That’s what I would hope
Meredith Miller
That coregulation is part of what helps us heal the trauma. So as we connect with other people. Why are things so traumatic, especially in childhood, if no one was there for you? Maybe two children went through a very similar experience. One of the child had a parent who take care of them, someone who was there for them, who hugged them, who held them, who made them feel safe and connected. They’re not going to have such severe post trauma, maybe not even have post trauma after that event. The child who was left alone, abandoned, not believed, told it was their fault and that sort of thing. That child is going to have severe trauma. So if we connect with others, other people are there, other people see the same reality, other people feel the same emotions. We process this grief together. We can act together. This is a very healing thing that can be done. The challenge for so many people right now, I think, is so many people feel so alone. And that’s the whole purpose of this, the social isolation, because the isolation is necessary for the abuse to take place. So many people see the truth, see reality, but they feel so alone because maybe no one else in their life or very few people in their life can see it. And that’s part of the traumatization. So I think it’s amazing the work that you all are doing to bring people together, to connect everybody who’s seeing this sort of thing so we don’t feel so alone. So we do feel more connected.
Reiner Fuellmich
Yeah, we’re all trying to do play our part in this game, and we’re trying to take over the lead roles. You are. We are all of the good people who are really interested in the good of mankind. We don’t pretend we mean it because if we didn’t, we would do this right?
Reiner Fuellmich
Meredith, this was great. Thank you so much.
Meredith Miller
Thank you for inviting me.
Reiner Fuellmich
Oh, thanks for being here. And again, I apologize for keeping you waiting, but I know that you did enjoy listening to. Oh yeah,
Meredith Miller
It was great. Thank you so much.
Reiner Fuellmich
All right. Because I know we’re going to need much more of this when this whole House of Cards collapses, because that’s when the real work starts. And most of this has to do with psychology.
Meredith Miller
Correct.
Reiner Fuellmich
Okay, well, thank you very much and have a great weekend.
Meredith Miller
You too.
Reiner Fuellmich
Thank you.
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